This is the spec I would probably use.

Imp. Stings is nice for PvP and upping Chimera Shot damage but not so great for other specs.

I personally think you'd get more dps out of Rapid Killing and another point in GftT. Especially with how much you crit as Survival.

(Honestly I stole the spec from a guy on elitist jerks. Most of the guys there seem to disdain Sniper Training. There's not many bosses it will help you out on. And if you're trap dancing as much as possible you'll almost never get use out of it.)

See, I also took my spec from the survival thread on EJ. My thoughts on why I prefer my spec over yours:

GftT's purpose is really to allow your pet to have enough focus to use their focus dump, (in cats' case, claw) and one point allows them to do this just fine. Also, with roughly 40% overall critrate, and 60% on explosive shot, I find that having 2 points in this talent may be a waste, as your pet should have sufficient focus to use all of it's abilities. (Speculation, I don't have any proof on that). Finally, WWS shows that pet dps is only about 20% of our damage on an average raid boss fight.

About Rapid Killing: the way raid bosses are right now, putting the 2 points into this talent allows you to have 1, -maybe- 2 extra rapid fire cooldowns, and that's it. Since our most damaging abilities (explosive shot and aimed shot) are instant, rapid fire is much less of an impact on DPS as it is on, say, a BM spec.

With sniper training, you get a base +6% damage if you're able to retain that 30 yrd distance, which is quite possible in most boss fights. The kill shot crit is nice too, especially with the cooldown on kill shot reduced to 15 seconds. I've found i'm able to use this ability 3 times on average, and it crits each time for 12k+ (but that's really just more of a bonus to the talent).
Also, 2/3 Exposed Weakness, in my experience, is more than required to keep the buff up 100% of the time.

About improved stings... Serpent sting should -always- be up, and a 30% damage buff to a constant dot seems like a no-brainer to me.

Edit: I plan on testing pet focus regen and availability with 1/2 GftT next time i have a chance.

Serpent Sting damage per tic:

[20% of AP + 1210] * [talents] / 15

Say you have 4k AP, that's:

[2010] * 1.05 * 1.03 / 15 = 145 (rounded up)

Each tic happens every 3s so that's:

145 / 3 = 48 dps.

Adding in the talent:

[2010] * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.3 / 15 = 188

Once again converting to dps:

188 / 3 = 63 dps.

So for three talent points you get a gain of:

63 - 48 = 15 dps or 5dps per point.

Worth it?

Edit: Also - Sniper Training vs. Trap Dancing. Guarunteed LnL proc every 30s on some fights vs. special damage increase on some fights.

I've also done some math on a point in trap mastery:

[10% RAP + 1885] * talents / 15

[400 + 1885] * 1.05 * 1.03 / 15 = 165 per tic.

165 / 3 = 55 dps while the trap is active.

55/2 = 27.5 dps overall. (up every 15s out of 30s)

With the talent:

[400 + 1885] * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.3 / 15 = 214

214 / 3 = 71.4 dps while the trap is active.

71.4 / 2 = 35.7

35.7 - 27.5 = 8.2 dps for one point.

Good? No. But better than improved stings. Well, when you can trap dance anyway.

Note that when you trap dance you can also get a 'free' melee swing in. In TBC some hunters tested melee/ranged dancing after the dead-zone was removed and got some nice results. Problem is it's hard to execute right and wasn't possible on most TBC fights.

I'm not sure what formula is used, but Shandara's DPS spreadsheet shows that improved stings is much more of a DPS gain. The spreadsheet may be incorrect/bugged... but 3/3 improved stings is increasing my DPS by 112. (Unbuffed)

But even assuming your math is correct as opposed to the spreadsheet, I'm still not quite convinced. I find rapid fire to be rather underwhelming due to our use of instant shots, and GftT's value is diminished as your crit rating goes up. At least with my well geared hunter, I'm showing roughly 40% crit rate raid buffed, with more if MT procs, and also an extra 9% on explosive shot. Seems like plenty of focus for our pets.

The only other thing different I saw between our 2 specs, was you put another point into EW instead of sniper shot. In my experience, 2/3 EW was sufficient to keep it up nearly 100% of the time, and I still stick by sniper training for the extra kill shot crit and the situational +6% damage. (But this is more personal preference).

Edit: Trap mastery does look interesting if you're trapdancing throughout the fight.

Yeah, I totally borked my math.

SS calculations:

Assume 5k AP:

[1000 + 1210] * 1.03 * 1.05 * 1.13 = 2701 / 15 = 180 dps.

2701 * 1.3 = 3511 / 15 = 234 dps.

234 - 180 = 54 / 3 = 18dps per point. Better than I thought. Still not a 1% dps increase (I hope.)

IT calculations:

[500 + 1885] * 1.03 * 1.05 * 1.13 = 2915 / 15 = 194

194 / 2 = 97

2915 * 1.3 = 3789.5 / 15 = 253

253 / 2 = 126

126 - 97 = 29 dps gain for 1pt. Once again, only on fights you can trap dance.

Also not a 1% dps increase, but it does provide additional utility for fights you actually have to trap. I'm thinking of you, Gluth.

Let's look at Patchwerk from last week's 25-Naxx.

http://wowwebstats.com/23bkj5ugzcxk3?a=x17bddef&s=251026-295319

Auto-shot was 21% of your total damage and #2. RK would have given you one extra RF at the end of the kill, allowing you to get out a few more autoshots and getting 5-8k more damage. Ok, you're right, not that impressive. Man I'm such an old hunter. RF + Aimed Shot = win. /sigh.

Let's see how much extra damage you got from Imp. Stings.

x * 1.3 = 44723; x = 34402

44723 - 34402 = 10321

That's roughly 3.4k damage per point.

That's also 50dps, or ~17dps per point.

I'm too lazy to figure out how much damage RF would actually get you, but let's say 5k because I'm feeling lazy. 2.5k damage per point.

So the 1pt in GftT would have to be worth 900 damage over 3:26, or ~ 4dps.

GftT napkin maths.

Your pet did 125 claws and 18 rakes.

Attacks used:

125 * 25 = 3125 focus

125 * 1.5s (GCD) = 187.5s

18 * 20 = 360 focus

18 * 1.5s (GCD) = 27s

Focus provided: 2875ish (totaled up your crits and multiplied by 25)

That's 214s worth of attack time. Which supports your notion that 1/2 GftT is enough to keep your pet using specials throughout the fight.

Moving to fantasy land for a moment:

Resourcefulness(6s off trap CD / 60% off cost) would be a nice dps/dpm increase for trap dancing if it weren't for the 30s ICD on LnL. I hope they drop that to 20s.

I'm totally going to try Survival trap spec just for laughs when I get Irshi to 80.

Hah, I win! Hunter class lead my ASS

Edit: Most of this would be moot anyway if This Spec turns out to be higher in DPS than the one i'm currently using. Testing isnt definitive either way yet, as far as I know.

I assume you'd mongoose bite when running out after trapping for that spec? Raptor Strike is known to create headaches if it gets stuck on.

I still don't get the schizophrenia in the survival build. Sniper Training needs to be moved to MM so there's none of this: more damage if you dance in and out of melee or are > 30yrds away silliness.

Glad someone found a build that didn't include points wasted on imp. stings. =P

P.S. I'm DK class lead now. Hunter theorycrafting is more my hobby. No idea what happened to Worgh or Daruntis.

Yeah, moongose when you run in and trap, provided they dont make bosses immune to traps to prevent trap dancing.

Hmm... no hunter class leads around... what a dilemma...

CHAIN HEAL!!

oh..wait.

wrong forum..


good info guys.

Speaking of chain heal my shammy is approaching 80 and I plan on taking him resto. Mind making a post w/ resto tips for me, Sky?

fo sho amigo..

Bumping for recognition.